[wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted variables from related bundles

Wed Aug 5 11:10:21 PDT 2020

Right, but if we ever need to change the storage location/encryption in the future, the API will isolate the consumer from the implementation. I don't think we want to be painted into a corner with no ability to change it. In addition, I would expect the butil API to handle the encryption/decryption.

From: Bob Arnson <bob at firegiant.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 12:58 PM
To: Hoover, Jacob <Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com>; WiX Toolset Developer Mailing List <wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org>; Rob Mensching <rob at firegiant.com>
Subject: RE: [wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted variables from related bundles

That doesn't cover a lot of scenarios. If we're going to use the registry without some kind of encoding (not encryption), blocking "plain" use of the registry seems like overkill.

From: Hoover, Jacob <Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com<mailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, 5 August, 2020 13:53
To: Bob Arnson <bob at firegiant.com<mailto:bob at firegiant.com>>; WiX Toolset Developer Mailing List <wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org>>; Rob Mensching <rob at firegiant.com<mailto:rob at firegiant.com>>
Subject: RE: [wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted variables from related bundles

No...  Don't look it up in the registry, use butil API to get to it.

From: Bob Arnson <bob at firegiant.com<mailto:bob at firegiant.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 12:52 PM
To: WiX Toolset Developer Mailing List <wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org>>; Rob Mensching <rob at firegiant.com<mailto:rob at firegiant.com>>
Cc: Hoover, Jacob <Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com<mailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com>>
Subject: RE: [wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted variables from related bundles

There's non-sensitive data that a bundle author might want to expose for non-bundle use (e.g., "go ahead and look up Foo in the registry <here>."

-----Original Message-----
From: wix-devs <wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org>> On Behalf Of Hoover, Jacob via wix-devs
Sent: Wednesday, 5 August, 2020 13:44
To: Rob Mensching <rob at firegiant.com<mailto:rob at firegiant.com>>; WiX Toolset Developer Mailing List <wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org>>
Cc: Hoover, Jacob <Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com<mailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com>>
Subject: Re: [wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted variables from related bundles

I guess from my standpoint, if we were to encrypt one variable, we might as well encrypt "them" all. At least then it would be a single behavior for storage and retrieval. Then the only thing you'd have to worry about is the compiler warning when persisting if the variable is defined as hidden. Are we only encrypting stings, or would we encrypt all variable types?

From: Rob Mensching <rob at firegiant.com<mailto:rob at firegiant.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 12:39 PM
To: WiX Toolset Developer Mailing List <wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org>>
Cc: Hoover, Jacob <Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com<mailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com>>
Subject: RE: [wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted variables from related bundles

1. I don't completely disagree about the futility. However, storing secrets in plain text is hard to defend. So, if we store them it seems reasonable to at least do the minimum described in the Win32 documentation:
* https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/dpapi/nf-dpapi-cryptprotectdata<https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/dpapi/nf-dpapi-cryptprotectdata><https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/dpapi/nf-dpapi-cryptprotectdata<https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/dpapi/nf-dpapi-cryptprotectdata>>
* https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/secbp/handling-passwords<https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/secbp/handling-passwords><https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/secbp/handling-passwords<https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/secbp/handling-passwords>>

2. I think it would definitely be a good idea to have at least a warning when Persisting Hidden variables. I could see someone argue that the warning should be an error if the above doesn't sound secure enough to allow anyone to store hidden variables easily.

-----Original Message-----
From: wix-devs <wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org>>> On Behalf Of Hoover, Jacob via wix-devs
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 10:23 AM
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Cc: Hoover, Jacob <Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com<mailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com<mailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com%3cmailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com>>>
Subject: Re: [wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted variables from related bundles

The question I have is what is the value of encrypting them? If were just trying to deter the casual observer, then that's fine, but I would expect butil to expose an API for reading variables. Are you suggesting that hidden variables would be excluded from being shared? (I could see using the bundle id as a seed for encrypting them, but even then it's only going to protect from the casual observer as WIX is open source so a skilled individual could always write the code to do the same as the bundle is doing.)

From: wix-devs <wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org>>> On Behalf Of Bob Arnson via wix-devs
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:30 AM
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Cc: Bob Arnson <bob at firegiant.com<mailto:bob at firegiant.com<mailto:bob at firegiant.com%3cmailto:bob at firegiant.com>>>
Subject: Re: [wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted variables from related bundles

We could separate "hidden" from "secure" or "encryptedAtRest" in v2.

-----Original Message-----
From: wix-devs <wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org>>>> On Behalf Of Rob Mensching via wix-devs
Sent: Wednesday, 5 August, 2020 10:25
To: WiX Toolset Developer Mailing List <wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org>>>>
Cc: Rob Mensching <rob at firegiant.com<mailto:rob at firegiant.com<mailto:rob at firegiant.com%3cmailto:rob at firegiant.com<mailto:rob at firegiant.com%3cmailto:rob at firegiant.com%3cmailto:rob at firegiant.com%3cmailto:rob at firegiant.com>>>>
Subject: Re: [wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted variables from related bundles

> If Windows Installer really doesn't protect Hidden variables with encryption, then I'm not sure there's value in Burn doing the encryption during runtime or at rest.

Reasonable argument but persisted MSI Properties is an oft requested feature (that's why my Remember Property Pattern blog post is very popular) and doing it with secure variables requires more complicated machinery.

I am of the opinion (and I could be convinced I'm wrong), that protecting secrets in memory is overkill. There is always a point somewhere in the process where the secret is not encrypted in memory (like being typed into a password text box or sent to an external process). So, the goal should be to protect the secret from non-authorized users. That's why I thought DAPI would work because it prevents a hard drive from being stolen and inspected. AFAIK, there is no protecting secrets from users on the machine who run processes that operate on those secrets.

Anyway, I totally understand if Persisted Hidden variables are not encrypted in the first version of the feature.

Also, I think it is a bit of a hassle for a BA to securely store Hidden variables. Namely, it'd have to create a parallel set of persisted variables that are updated when their non-secure variables are changed. Doable, just a bit of a hassle.

-----Original Message-----
From: wix-devs <wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org>>>> On Behalf Of Sean Hall via wix-devs
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 4:48 PM
To: WiX Toolset Developer Mailing List <wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org>>>>
Cc: Sean Hall <r.sean.hall at gmail.com<mailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com<mailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com%3cmailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com<mailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com%3cmailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com%3cmailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com%3cmailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com>>>>
Subject: Re: [wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted variables from related bundles

If Windows Installer really doesn't protect Hidden variables with encryption, then I'm not sure there's value in Burn doing the encryption during runtime or at rest. It would always need to be decrypted and sent to an external process to actually be used which defeats the purpose. At which point we should probably copy Windows Installer and say that Hidden only protects it from being written to the log. If the BA wants it decrypted, it can encrypt it and set a string variable to the base64 value.

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 1:08 PM Rob Mensching via wix-devs < wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org>>>> wrote:

> > added a warning or something to Variables marked Hidden and Persisted.
>
> Or... should we investigate DAPI encrypting Hidden variables in the
> registry? Just throwing that out there if Jacob (or someone) wanted to
> noodle on it. I have not thought through the issues to the bottom.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wix-devs
> <wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.w
<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.w%0b<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.w%0b%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.w%0b>>> ixtoolset.org>> On Behalf Of Rob Mensching via wix-devs
> Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2020 11:13 AM
> To: WiX Toolset Developer Mailing List
> <wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<ma
<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cma%0b>> ilto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.
> org>>>
> Cc: Rob Mensching
> <rob at firegiant.com<mailto:rob at firegiant.com<mailto:rob at firegiant.com%3
<mailto:rob at firegiant.com%3cmailto:rob at firegiant.com%3cmailto:rob at firegiant.com%253%0b>> cmailto:rob at firegiant.com>>>
> Subject: Re: [wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted
> variables from related bundles
>
> Quick historical note:
>
> > I feel like the interaction between Hidden and Persisted wasn't
> > fully thought through
>
> It wasn't that it wasn't thought through, the problem was just punted
> in the first version of Burn. Maybe that's the same thing but the
> intent was different. <smile/>
>
> In the end, we probably should have added a warning or something to
> Variables marked Hidden and Persisted. Maybe not too late to consider...
> especially if the values are going to be more obvious in the registry?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wix-devs
> <wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.w
<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.w%0b<mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.w%0b%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.w%0b>>> ixtoolset.org>> On Behalf Of Sean Hall via wix-devs
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 10:46 AM
> To: WiX Toolset Developer Mailing List
> <wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<ma
<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cma%0b>> ilto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.
> org>>>
> Cc: Sean Hall
> <r.sean.hall at gmail.com<mailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com<mailto:r.sean.hall
<mailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com%3cmailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com%3cmailto:r.sean.hall%0b>> @gmail.com%3cmailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com>>>
> Subject: Re: [wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted
> variables from related bundles
>
> By "secure", you mean a Variable that is Hidden="yes"? The state file
> is just as secure as the registry. I feel like the interaction between
> Hidden and Persisted wasn't fully thought through, hence the issue I
> created -
> https://github.com/wixtoolset/issues/issues/4862<https://github.com/wixtoolset/issues/issues/4862><https://github.com/wi<https://github.com/wi>
> xtoolset/issues/issues/4862><https://github.com/wi<https://github.com/wi><https://github.com/<https://github.com>
> wi> xtoolset/issues/issues/4862>. I've been following the .NET Core
> discussion about obsoleting SecureString (
> https://github.com/dotnet/designs/pull/147<https://github.com/dotnet/designs/pull/147><https://github.com/dotnet/d<https://github.com/dotnet/d>
> esigns/pull/147><https://github.com/dotnet/d<https://github.com/dotnet/d><https://github.com/dotnet<https://github.com/dotnet>
> /d>
> esigns/pull/147>) and I'm wondering if there's actually value in the
> engine encrypting Hidden variables. I had hoped that MSI was also
> trying to be careful with Hidden properties, but I think the WiX documentation is right - it only hides it from being written to the log.
>
> I didn't see anything in your POC that removed the "shared" variables
> from the state file.
>
> I'm suggesting that "shared" is unnecessary, and that all Persisted="yes"
> variables should be stored in the registry instead of the state file.
>
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 11:07 AM Hoover, Jacob
> <Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com
<mailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com%0b<mailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com%0b%3cmailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com%0b<mailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com%0b%3cmailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com%0b%3cmailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com%0b%3cmailto:Jacob.Hoover at greenheck.com%0b>>>> >
> wrote:
>
> > I was trying to find a happy medium. As the registry isn't a "secure"
> > location, I was envisioning that it would be limited use so the
> > author could explicitly define what they wanted to share. Going from
> > memory, I don't think my POC implementation stores in both locations.
> >
> >
> >
> > Are you suggesting of eliminating local storage of variables and
> > place them all in the registry?
> >
> >
> >
> > I'll work on a WIP as soon as I can garner enough feedback to at
> > least ensure I am not totally off base.
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* wix-devs [mailto:wix-devs-bounces at lists.wixtoolset.org] *On
> > Behalf Of *Sean Hall via wix-devs
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2020 6:46 PM
> > *To:* WiX Toolset Developer Mailing List
> > <wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<
<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3c%0b>> > mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtool
> > set.org>>
> > >
> > *Cc:* Sean Hall
> > <r.sean.hall at gmail.com<mailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com<mailto:r.sean.ha
<mailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com%3cmailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com%3cmailto:r.sean.ha%0b>> > ll at gmail.com%3cmailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com<mailto:ll at gmail.com%3cmailto:r.sean.hall at gmail.com>>>>
> > *Subject:* Re: [wix-devs] WIXBUG3704 - Allow access to persisted
> > variables from related bundles
> >
> >
> >
> > I think it's a good idea to persist the variables in the registry. I
> > think there should be a single source of truth so I don't think they
> > should also be persisted to the state file.
> >
> > I'm having trouble coming up with a use case for persisting a
> > variable for the bundle but not for related bundles. Why shouldn't
> > all persisted variables be "shared"?
> >
> > Please write a WIP.
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 10:14 AM Hoover, Jacob via wix-devs <
> > wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org<mailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org%3cmailto:wix-devs at lists.wixtoolset.org>>>> wrote:
> >
> > > https://github.com/wixtoolset/issues/issues/3704<https://github.com/wixtoolset/issues/issues/3704><https://github.co<https://github.co>
> > > m/wixtoolset/issues/issues/3704><https://github.co<https://github.co><https://github.
> > > co>
> > > m/wixtoolset/issues/issues/3704>
> > >
> > > I haven't done my searching yet, but this is related to some work
> > > I had done internally. My thought was instead of allowing access
> > > to persisted variables, to allow for "shared" variables which
> > > would be written to the registry. In addition to not needing to be
> > > concerned with format/version and/or invoking the other bundle to
> > > ask it for data, we could simply
> > allow
> > > for shared variables to be accessed via the registry.
> > >
> > > I believe this was my rough in of the POC:
> > >
> > https://github.com/wixtoolset/wix3/compare/develop...jchoover:WIXFEA<https://github.com/wixtoolset/wix3/compare/develop...jchoover:WIXFEA>
> > <https://github.com/wixtoolset/wix3/compare/develop...jchoover:WIXFE<https://github.com/wixtoolset/wix3/compare/develop...jchoover:WIXFE>
> > A>
> > <https://github.com/wixtoolset/wix3/compare/develop...jchoover:WIXFE<https://github.com/wixtoolset/wix3/compare/develop...jchoover:WIXFE>
> > <https://github.com/wixtoolset/wix3/compare/develop...jchoover:WIXFE<https://github.com/wixtoolset/wix3/compare/develop...jchoover:WIXFE>
> > >
> > A>
> > T3
> > 704
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jacob
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________________________
> > > __ WiX Toolset Developer Mailing List provided by FireGiant
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